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Living in Sodom 2012 by Rev. Gerald Palmer, MSW

Living in Sodom 2012 by Rev. Gerald Palmer, MSW

On May 9th, 2012 the President of The United States of America gave his support of marriage for same gender loving people. While many have cheered, the cries that President Barack Obama is turning America into Sodom 2012 have been greater.

 

Growing up, I was told of a dark and evil place called Sodom. It was a party town where gays partied all night long. Sounds of disco music could be heard from miles away. A nice man named Lot moved his entire family to Sodom; the land was cheap.

 

All was well until two good looking angels dropped by to see Lot. Ooh chile, this stirred up the gay men of Sodom honey. All the men of Sodom, both young and old, made their way to Lot’s house to get a glimpse of those blond hair blue eyed hunks. They couldn’t control their gayness as they made their way to Lot’s door. Running full speed they charged at Lot’s door and screamed for the hunky hunks to come out so they could ravish their bodies.

 

Lot pleaded with the gays not to do such a disgusting thing but the gays were too full of lust to listen. So Lot doing what any man of honor of that time would do, offered his daughters to the gay men. The gay men didn’t want to share beauty tips with Lot’s daughters, they wanted the hunks.

 

Ooh chile, you should have seen all the men of Sodom both young and old lusting after those fine angels. Built up with lust, the men of Sodom knocked the front door of Lot’s house down. The men and boys of Sodom, who were all gay, were surprised when the two hunky angels sent fire balls down burning up gay Sodom.

 

Although I took my own liberties with the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah found in Genesis 19, my rendition of the story is not far off from what many Christians believe and teach today. They teach that Sodom was full of gay men running sexually rampant throughout the city. They teach that Sodom was destroyed because of this, their grave sin.

 

Where is this stated in scripture?

 

Where do we see that homosexuality was the sin of Sodom?

 

We see the first mention of Sodom in Genesis 18 starting with verse 16 when The Lord began to reveal to Abraham what was planned for Sodom. At that time The Lord explains to Abraham the sins of Sodom were grave however; the reader is not told what these sins were.

 

How did we get to the point where homosexuality was seen as the grave sin of Sodom?

 

Could the answer be the attempted gang rape of the angels?

 

Male rape was a custom of that time period, especially during times of war. During times of war, the conquering army’s general would rape the defeated general or military leader. It had nothing to do with a person’s sexual orientation or attractions. This practice was about power and humiliation and Sodom was no different. They were a venerable city built at the foot of mountains. With no natural protection from their enemies, Sodom became a fortified city as they built their own protection. Along with being fortified, Sodom was also known as a treacherous city as they raided many other cities.

How did we get to the point where homosexuality was seen as the grave sin of Sodom when there is no evidence of this?

 

That is another article within itself.

 

There is evidence of what the grave sins of Sodom were.

 

Ezekiel 16:49-50:

49“Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. 50“Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.

 

According to the Prophet Ezekiel, the sins of Sodom were their greed, their arrogance and their refusal to help the poor and needy. In that case, we are living in Sodom 2012.

 

We live in a time where corporate greed triggered the Financial Collapse of 2008.
We live in a time and a place where the families of workers of bankrupt companies are left with nothing as the CEO of the company leaves with millions.

 

We are living in Sodom.

 

We live in a time where multi millionaire clergy serve congregations in which the majority of the members are living in poverty.

 

We live in a time where greed led these same clergy members to invite con-artists into their pulpits to financially victimize their congregants in God’s name.

 

When many declare that marriage equality and homosexuality will lead America to Sodom status, we must tell them that America and the rest of the world are already there.

 

Our greed, our sexism, our racism, our heterosexism, our religious based homophobia, and our lack of compassion for others have put us here.

 

We are living in Sodom.

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Written by Rev. Gerald Palmer

Rev. Gerald Palmer

Gerald Palmer is the founder of Word for the Soul Ministries, an urban ministry created to win souls for Christ by breaking down the barriers of homophobia, poverty, blame, shame and pain. Rev.r Palmer is a highly effective and sought after speaker who believes in bringing a Word of hope, transformation and reflection. He believes in breaking down the grips of shame, blame and pain to help equip God’s people to be the Victors that they were born to be. Rev. Palmer has a vast background in ministry, HIV/AIDS, abuse, social work, social service, broadcasting and public speaking. He is a member of Crossroads Church in Kansas City, Missouri. Palmer is an HIV Certified Trainer with the American Red Cross of Greater Kansas City, and HIV Educator and holds both a Bachelors of Social Work from Avila University and a Masters of Social Work from the University of Missouri Kansas City. He is married to a wonderful and beautiful woman of God, and the father of three great children.

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  • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

    I want to welcome everybody to this special forum. Let’s dialogue together. No profane words. We’re all brethren in Christ. Welcome to Counted for Christ Roundtable debate. Special thanks to our special guest writer, Rev. Palmer for this well written article, and that doesn’t mean i am comfortable with everything that was said in it. Let’s dialogue. Welcome! 

  • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

    I think the question at hand is: “Where do we see that homosexuality was the sin of Sodom?” 

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000700855935 Anthony Blair

      Maybe it was homosexuality in addition to many other things.

      • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

        For the Bible to make such emphasis on homosexuality in Genesis when referring to Sodom, that means…it was an issue for God

  • Evang. Olameji Okaibuu

    Gen 19:5, should anybody wants to contend with this; lets draw infrence from the statement of Lot in vs 8 “…i have two daughters which have not known man…and do ye unto them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing;…”. Without any silogyms in display, the act of Sodom was men copulating men.

  • Debby DuGard

    Is there a scale or measuring stick to gage degree of sin? For me sin is sin & humankind is flawed. That’s why I’m counted for Christ…my brother 

  • Toni Moore

    Yet you forget that Obama, stepped in the pile of POOP, he DID NOT create it. On top of that, he said that he is for equal rights/human rights, so in your eyes if that’s all you allow yourself to hear and **********on you. Pray for yourself and Obama and be done with it. Stop worrying about who’s “doing whom” and worry about pleasing the one you’re “doing”. EACH and every person will stand in front of God and be judged for his/her own sins/actions. Obama has tried to help and is helping the poor and needy…..#thatisall-thankyou#

    • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

      I think i did more agree with you Toni…Obama simply stepped “in the pile of POOP” as you said. He had to address the present issue at hand…and for God’s sake His election is coming up. And sometimes in leadership is always like that. Romney might argue reasonably against Obama and say whatsoever he likes but i won’t blame him cos he is not one the Oval office. Once in the Oval…you certainly will someday if not all days… take decisions that might not be in accordance to your principle. Something just have to be said sometimes to keep the ball rolling…Good thought Toni, but pls not “hate” words. 

    • countedforchrist

      Toni, we edited out the part you didn’t use words according to our principle. Pls no profane words. 

  • countedforchrist

    Gerald, i’m coming back in few hours for my response to your question on Sodom. Just wait…

  • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

    Here
    is my feedback to your article, Gerald:

    First,
    you’re right we’re in Sodom! “Sodom is a dark place”. A dark state of mind. A
    dark side of LIFE. If really we were not in Sodom majority of the world won’t
    question the audacity of LGBTs. Swimming in our perverted “ocean” of cosmos
    where abnormalities are gradually becoming things of normalcy….we are indeed
    redirecting, and in my personal opinion, stampeding the currents and
    crosscurrents of nature…and of course – redefining nature, but only in a late hour
    to come to the understanding that we’re destroying our world as Sodomites did
    to theirs. I will explain the context of Ezekiel’s text later following. 

  • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

    Secondly, 
    You’re wrong about Ezekiel’s reference to greed, carelessness and pride as the
    iniquity of Sodom. But come to think of it: these were all the very things that
    spark the light, that stir the passion/taste and lure sin to explode into unimaginable proportions.  These were the very factors that led the “gay” men of Sodom to taste for fellow men and unfortunately, God’s Angels. If you would really want to know, Gerald, the case of Ezekiel where he mentions arrogance, greed and careless ease as the cause of the destruction of Sodom was also pointing on a direction.  Of which “arrogance”, “abundance of pleasure” and “careless ease” are all the starting point of an unusual taste. Greed is the function of homosexuality and vice verse! Arrogance is the function of homosexuality and vice versa! Carelessness is the function of homosexuality and vice versa. Because when you have too much of things you are not suppose to have you seem to lose control of the good in you and the taste of the good things of life you’ve enjoyed and running for the unconventionals. “YES” Ezekiel was still right when he mentioned of those as the sin of Sodom because, really, that’s where it starts from. It is when you come at the end of the road of greed, carelessness and pride that an unusual taste (homosexuality) creeps in.

  • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

    Thirdly Gerald, 
    You’re missing a point: An integration of the “unconventionals” and “abnormalities”
    only make one more greedy, proud and careless the more. Please don’t smartly
    narrow your point as though Ezekiel was emphasizing on another. I DISAGREE WITH YOU ON THAT. HE MADE HIS POINT CLEAR CUT: GREED, CARELESSNESS AND PRIDE LED THEM TO THE PRACTICE OF HOMOSEXUALITY, WHILE ALSO CARELESSNESS (ABUSING GOD’S ANGELS AND WANTING SEX FROM GOD’S PEOPLE – HIS ANGELS) LED GOD TO DESTROY THEIR WORLD. THEIR OVERBEARING PRIDE, REPRESSIVE GREED AND DOGGY CARELESSNESS LED THEM TO HOMOSEXUALITY WHICH EVENTUALLY BROUGHT DESTRUCTION ON THEM. BOTH ARE INSEPARABLE.

  • William Sillings

    Apparently, homosexuality was only ONE of the great sins of Sodom. The idea that homosexuality was Sodom’s sin comes from the fact that the men of the city preferred to “know” Lot’s male visitors over Lot’s offer to give them his daughters instead. Perhaps that was merely to shame and humiliate them, as Palmer says, but there is no war here. The men of Sodom were degraded in their passions from their failure to live justly. And as Ezekiel says, they did abominations before the Lord – See Romans 1:18-32 for how God gives people up to different levels of sin as they refuse to keep Him in their lives.

  • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

    To this end, 
    As the Sodomites, homosexuality starts because of a leap for something more…of pleasure…of affection and …of attention. Often we are not bold enough to
    approach such appetite aright and alas we embrace the unusual because it’s just
    on our face.  Ask anyone you think that feels he or she has such kind of “sexual orientation” (as you use to call it) how it all started…they will tell you…’they wanted to discover who they were”…”they always felt different and lonely”…and thus, they exercised their naivety and are where they are today. It’s all what they say Gerald.

  • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

    You say Sodomy is already part of us? Last I checked my dictionary it was still what it meant centuries ago. You also say sodomy wasn’t referenced to homosexuality in the Bible and it wasn’t the reason why God destroy Sodom. Ya, you’re right there is no direct emphasis to that but there were both implicative and applicative emphases on Ezekiel’s prophesy and even on the whole scenario at Lot’s. That’s what the Bible does best. It encodes contextual meanings to each texts for us to decode. Biblical texts are full of implicative and applicative instructions for God’s people. That’s the model in which God inspired His saints to write the Scripture. BUT TO SAY THAT GOD DID NOT INDIRECTLY SPEAK ABOUT “SIN” AS WHAT LED TO THE DESTRUCTION OF SODOM, I THINK, FOR ME, IS AN ERROR. God destroyed Sodom as He was angry with them because of the abuse of His Grace which led them to ask for His angels – to sleep with God’s messengers. If we really need to think this through, following the events that followed, we will notice IT WAS AN ABOMINATION TO GOD…! Ezekiel recognized the wonted taste for the uncommon, the unusual and the most selfish, which led to their destruction. And I agree with him. When carelessness is sustained it becomes pride and when nurtured it becomes unbearable and when this is unbearable it turns to greed that will make us do most unimaginable bizarre things and thus by its virtue led the Sodomites to
    the practice of homosexuality. That was the point Ezekiel was making. It however appears that homosexuality is a post-dispositional taste which some of my gay friends naively nurture to nature when we allow self, greed, sexual gluttony and careless ease for pleasures to overtake us. The problem I see here is with people who allow this to LEAD the usual. They nurse these feelings of the unusuals and allow them to stretch until they find solace on the nearest – SIN! If we linger to take care of our problems and allow it to get out of hand it will become part of us. At the end of the day one thing is clear: It started with their (Sodomites’) lack of self-discipline because in not knowing how to manage and bound our ourselves with God’s standards, is just only for a matter of time, we will dive into the addiction of the unusual…which is anti-social, anti-church, anti-nature and of course, unhealthy for life’s journey. 

  • Selina Girod

    My name is Selina, I am a lesbian Christian, and this is my contribution to this debate.

    First, I want to share an interesting thought on inspiration or how God reveals different things at different points in time: In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit said that someone who got divorced and then married someone else is not allowed to return his/her first spouse in case the second marriage wouldn’t work out. Through Jesus, the same Holy Spirit revealed that the first marriage is the always valid one, which implies that returning to one’s first spouse would be the most natural thing to do. Also, I want to draw your attention to the presentation of Matthew Vines who talks about homosexuality and the Bible (see http://canyonwalkerconnections.com/the-bible-and-homosexuality-biblical-presentation-with-matthew-vines/)

    Over the last year, I have reconciled my homosexuality with my Christian belief after many years of trying to overcome my lesbianism with God’s help. Many, many prayers and telling Satan to get off my back in the name of Jesus had been part of those years before. But nothing had seemed to be changing, my homosexual feelings and longings had gotten stronger despite more targeted prayer while reading ex-gay therapy books. Frustrated and scared, I asked God for clarity but I did not get the anti-gay „keep praying for change“ clarity that I was expecting due to my Christian up-bringing. No! God showed me that I was gay, period (despite all the prayers and ex-gay attempts) AND then revealed Himself to me as my loving Father who knows about my heartfelt wish of a wife AND told me that He would even fulfil it. How heretic that sounded to me because of the anti-gay scripture. Yet, while researching on scripture etc, I have come across three types of testimonies which all confirmed what God was showing to me: That He has been revealing Himself as surprisingly pro-gay and even more surprisingly as NOT against committed same-sex unions. I will present those three groups adding internet links that you can visit in order to make up your own mind. 

    • Selina Girod

      GROUP 1: Testimonies by HETEROSEXUAL, former anti-gay ministers who used to preach the conventional anti-gay theology but then changed their mind after witnessing God’s presence among homosexual Christians and then after a lot of prayer stopped condemning gays and their same-sex relationships.

      - Evelyn Schave: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.233620620038528.51216.100001717743924&type=3&l=a526fdcbac
      - Silvia Pennington (now dead but active as a pro-gay minister in the seventies and eighties ALREADY): http://www.amazon.com/But-Lord-Theyre-Gay-Pilgrimage/dp/B0006Y2GRU

      • Selina Girod

        GROUP 2: Gay Christians who long struggled with being gay and then were led by God into accepting their homosexuality and felt encouraged by Him to enter into a committed same-sex marriage/relationship, and not to stay celibate or even marry a person of the opposite sex.

        – Elaine Sundby: excerpts from “CALLING THE RAINBOW NATION HOME”
        (not a husband but a wife) https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.176899065710684.40226.100001717743924&type=3&l=284da02b53
        AND: (it’s okay to have a same-sex partner) https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.177866625613928.40371.100001717743924&type=3&l=e4f3ba85b1

        • Selina Girod

          GROUP 3: Former ex-gay patients/leaders/activists who either later came out as still gay (after claiming they had been healed for years) or repealed their ex-gay theories.

          – Jeremy Marks (former ex-gay leader AND now affirming same-sex unions):
          His book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Exchanging-Truth-God-Lie-Homosexuality/dp/1903905346
          http://www.courage.org.uk/articles/article.asp?id=77 
          AND http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TUkl89Wpsk&list=PL0C421914108F3218&index=5&feature=plpp_video

          – About ex-gay ministries and Peterson Toscano (ex-gay patient for 17 years):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f78pA8jsRvE
          Peterson Toscano: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RPFfJazaoo

          • Selina Girod

            two books:
            – http://www.amazon.com/Ex-Gays-There-are-None-Creature/dp/0961685328
            – http://www.exgaynoway.com/

            Finally: a list of books or DVDs dealing with anti-gay scripture.

            Shaw Ministries: http://shawministries.org/Request_my_DVD.html

            http://www.amazon.com/Gay-Christian-101-Self-Defense-Homosexuality/dp/0979246105/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337187211&sr=1-1

            http://www.amazon.com/Good-News-Modern-Gays-Biblical/dp/999655869X

            Thanks for your attention!

            Selina

          • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

            Selina, by God’s Grace i have known you for almost a year now. I love your sincerity, your sense of humor and to add, your boldness. Several times, we’ve gone through this train before, i punched till i got you exasperated. Sorry i did that. However, I am TRYING very hard to come to grips with your situation…honestly, Selina, i have tried…but who knows, may be bcos i am not listening, or not in your shoes…and bent on believing what i believe. However, i hope i might be convinced that we can’t win our challenges/struggles through discipline…nor cannot we learn the conventional through discipline. I am still left out in the cold, wondering whether God cannot redefine our definition of something; especially when that thing is questionable…

    • Akibu Olamiji

      Selina, av you ever consider Heb 12:4 “Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.” Am afraid you av not consider this scripture, which is why you av settled for the “gay gosple” you now preach. you should also remember that the angels of darkness also appear as angel of light, decieving & confining people to hell. pls! the grace is available, (Titus 2:19). snacth youself. The love of God does not condone, nor overlook evil.

  • Lyn Smith

    Silena, I appreciate how well you expressed your thoughts, and how courageously you shared your life story. What you have experienced and chosen to pursue is very real. Everything you feel about it is real to you and I respect that. Unfortunately, our feelings do not define the truth. That is only defined by God and He is clear in Romans 1 about homosexuality and every other kind of immorality, perversion, etc.
    Because all of us are born with a sin nature, we all have the capacity for every kind of sin. We will be tempted and drawn into various areas due to genetics, environment and teaching. None of those factors justify giving in to temptation. Just because someone is born into an alcoholic family and will likely become an alcoholic if they start drinking, doesn’t mean they should give up resisting. No matter how strong the pull and how good it feels some of the time, it is still harmful and destructive. More importantly, it robs the person of the blessings of God.
    The same is true of homosexuality. Whether or not a person is born with it is irrelevant. We are all born with sin! It is how we choose to respond to it that matters. God gives grace to us all to deal with the weak areas of our lives. We will fail but His grace covers that too. What He desires for us is a surrendered heart – a passion for Him above all else. That passion will result in a lifelong pursuit of Him and His standard of holiness.
    He loves you no matter what you engage in, but His blessings will flow when you choose obedience. That is also true for me and everyone else. 

    • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

      Thank you Lyn. “We are all born with sin. And whether or not a person is born with it is irrelevant…it is how we choose to respond to it that matters”. You made your point! I think is up to us…to choose obedience

    • Olameji Akibu

      @1fff23e7cef7d56918fa1bfe7ef4bf3e:disqus  Thanx so much fr that illumination for Selina. 

    • MYK OH

      Just STRAIGHT TRUTH! amen !

      • MYK OH

        Miss Lyn Smith i would be honored to a BNC(Brother iN CHRIST) to you. My face book name is MYk Oh (my picture is a sign.. CHANGE AHEAD.. i would be honored to be a BNC!

    • MYK OH

      I Am truly blessed by your word(s). God’s Spirit Speaks!

  • Jim Buescher

    is the discussion about ‘sodomites’ soley representing homosexuals, apart from “everything else” or what the Bible says about homosexuality?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Selina-Chiro/100001717743924 Selina Chiro

    GROUP 1: Testimonies by HETEROSEXUAL, former anti-gay ministers who used to preach the conventional anti-gay theology but then changed their mind after witnessing God’s presence among homosexual Christians and then after a lot of prayer stopped condemning gays and their same-sex relationships.- Evelyn Schave: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.233620620038528.51216.100001717743924&type=3&l=a526fdcbac- Silvia Pennington (now dead but active as a pro-gay minister in the seventies and eighties ALREADY): http://www.amazon.com/But-Lord-Theyre-Gay-Pilgrimage/dp/B0006Y2GRU

  • http://www.facebook.com/ministergp1 Min Gerald Equality Palmer

    Greed is the funciton of homosexuality?  Where are you getting this?  Homosexuality like heterosexuality is a sexual orientation.  A sexual orientation is the romantic, emotional and sexual attraction to the same, opposite or both sexes.  We don’t have enough evidence to say that the men of Sodom was gay.  We have an attempted rape which I covered, but we don’t have any other proof that there were sexual acts performed by the men of Sodom.  There is nothing to support your breakdown.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ministergp1 Min Gerald Equality Palmer

      By your comments here, it seems that your interpretation of scripture may be shaded by your personal view of homosexuality.  I will explain as we go on.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ministergp1 Min Gerald Equality Palmer

    Victor how am I wrong about Ezekiel’s reference to greed, carelessness and pride as the iniquity of Sodom?  Let’s not deal with what you assume homosexuality to be.  Let us deal with the information at hand.  Ezekiel named those things but did name homosexuality and yet that is what you hone in on?

  • http://www.facebook.com/ministergp1 Min Gerald Equality Palmer

    Victor I have missed no point.  I deal what is before me and not what is in me.  I don’t allow my advocacy for the lgbt community taint my interpretation of scripture.  You state that God destroyed Sodom because the gay men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the angels.  The question we must ask ourselves is why were the angels there in the first place?Sodom was set to be destroyed in the first place and that is why the angels were there.  Again, your personal views on homosexuality are being revealed.  You are making assumptions

    “THEIR OVERBEARING PRIDE, REPRESSIVE GREED AND DOGGY CARELESSNESS LED THEM TO HOMOSEXUALITY WHICH EVENTUALLY BROUGHT DESTRUCTION ON THEM. BOTH ARE INSEPARABLE.”

    We have no evidence of this.  The only same sex behavior we see is the attempted rape of the angels. Behavior and sexual orientation are very different.  One can be straight and have same sex sexual contact (prisons).   We condemn the entire lgbt community for an attempted rape and yet we don’t condemn the straight community for an actual heterosexual rape found in  Judges 21:10-24.

    • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

      You are a smart man Gerald, I acknowledge that. However, I want to counter an opinion of yours. I did say that “God destroyed Sodom because the gay men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the angels”. And
      in response, you asked, “The question we must ask ourselves is why were the angels there in the first place?” I will respond to these accordingly from here:

      See Gerald, the history of Angels visiting man in biblical times is not
      atypical. It is interspersed all over the OT Bible. Remember Abraham? Remember the Angels that visited him? They did not first visit Abram to give him news about the wife, remember? It was in the process of their conversion, in the process of knowing and at that platform of mockery (by Sarah) that the Angels relayed the “prophetic” – Sarah’s conception. Remember? The same Angels that visited Abram came for no particular reason, as the Bible clearly shows. They just came to visit. They wanted fellowship with man. In fact, truly, although we can assume that it was time for Sarah to conceive and that’s why the Angels came, but the Bible did not explicitly speaks of this. All we know and can count on was
      that the whole episode of Sarah’s conception all started after they left…the same way the whole incident of the destruction of Sodom was put on play after the Angels left the city. God is trying to tell us that He wants our fellowship…and that what’s next is determined by how we respond to NOW.

      My statement about greed, pride and carelessness leading to homosexuality is simple logic. Let’s enter the realm of dynamism. The gestalt theory identifies factors to be the sum of a whole which eventually leads to particular forms of perceptual orientations. By this I mean, a configuration or pattern of elements such as greed, pride, careless ease etc, unified as a whole, that it cannot be described merely as a sum of its parts, might lead to an eclectic definition. This I see in homosexuality. It doesn’t just start…it’s progressive…right? SO that it. Something must burst the feeling. Remember I narrated the circle…seems like you cut that out. I said “When carelessness is sustained it becomes pride and when nurtured it becomes unbearable and when this is unbearable it turns to greed that makes us do the most unimaginable bizarre things. By virtue of these 3 factors, as cited by Ezekiel, the Sodomites were led to practice homosexuality or even attempt the rape game.

      • http://www.facebook.com/ministergp1 Min Gerald Equality Palmer

        Victor your view of this scripture is tainted by your disdain (for whatever reason) of the gay community.

        This is the angels reasons for coming to Sodom in their own words:

        Gen. 19:12-13
        12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:

        13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.

        Your factors for and beliefs on homosexuality do not match the reality of this sexual orientation. Your views don’t match scientific fact nor can they be backed up biblically.

        • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

          Sorry for the late reply, Gerald. I was caught with some things, but i am OK now…since is rectified. Thank you for the well-prepared counter-response which contains some kind of foul-play lol - technically speaking. I will agree more with you gerald if the “intention” in the text you cited came before the so called “attempted rape”. The Angel of the Lord were furious with anger and as a result of their attack, blinded those men. Lot himself couldn’t even control the situation. Would you still cover that as an “attempted attack”? Come on Gerald, the case you present is not healthy. Verse 12 – 13 is simply a response to episode (verse) 1 – 11. This should be clear. I repeat “the history of Angels visiting man in Biblical times is not atypical”. Lot’s case is also one of them. The event (destruction) that followed was simply a response to the “attempted-rape attack” of the men of Sodom. This is to tell you that GOD IS AGAINST SUCH… Gerald, if you can provide evidence that the response was prior to the rape-attack then i will drop my case and agree more with you. 

          Victor

          • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

            However Gerald, i know of Abraham’s conversion with God about destroying Sodom only if He meets at least 20 righteous… I know that! But i could stand on the vantage that, the Angels actually went to Sodom to see for themselves what’s going on there and give their report back to God (although God is an ever knowing Creature) not to proclaim destruction. As the case presents itself, the actions of the men of Sodom, including all other sordidness (sins) prevailing in the city of Sodom eventually led to their destruction. 

            My point here is that the gay-prone action of the men of Sodom fastened the whole process. It’s bad that the act of homosexuality came into play there. That, by implication, has something to tell us. Don’t you think so?

          • http://www.facebook.com/ministergp1 Min Gerald Equality Palmer

            Yeah, Victor if what I have given you is not enough, I have no idea what else to give.

          • countedforchrist

            I am sorry, Gerald. I wish there were more to convince me to stand with you on this. 

          • http://www.facebook.com/ministergp1 Min Gerald Equality Palmer

            Oh you don’t have to stand with me. 

          • http://www.countedforchrist.org Victor Counted

            Of course.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ministergp1 Min Gerald Equality Palmer

    Victor I am going to respond to your big comment in sections.  Your words are in qoutations.

    “You say Sodomy is already part of us?”Actually I stated that we are living in Sodom.  If the sins of Sodom were greed, not taking care of the poor, and etc; then we are living in Sodom.  We must reprogram ourselves from the sexualized thought patterns.”You also say sodomy wasn’t referenced to homosexuality in the Bible and it wasn’t the reason why God destroy Sodom. Ya, you’re right there is no direct emphasis to that but there were both implicative and applicative emphases on Ezekiel’s prophesy and even on the whole scenario at Lot’s.”For many the Bible is a dot to dot picture that they can color in. Many people connect the dots but color in the picture how they seem fit.  The dot to dot is made in a picture of a fire truck but the artist paints it white and draw wings on it.  It’s a plane.How can you say what Ezekiel meant to say or what he was really trying to say?  “God destroyed Sodom as He was angry with them because of the abuse of His Grace which led them to ask for His angels – to sleep with God’s messengers. If we really need to think this through, following the events that followed, we will notice IT WAS AN ABOMINATION TO GOD”Yes God destroyed Sodom because God was angry with them.  But the problem I have and I thought I explained it the best I could was that homosexuality could not be stated as the reason.  Where do we get this.  The attempted rape?  I guess we must define sexual orientation.  Sexual orientation is the emotional, romantic and sexual attraction to the same, opposite or both genders.  We do not know that the men of Sodom were gay.  We do know that all the men of Sodom were at Lot’s door.  And again I gave my interpretations of this.  Behavior does not always imply sexual orienation.  So it is extremely unfair to condemn the gay community because of an attempted rape.”Ezekiel recognized the wonted taste for the uncommon, the unusual and the most selfish, which led to their destruction.”Were you and Ezekiel boys, did you guys go to church together?  How did you know what he saw besides what he wrote? ”That was the point Ezekiel was making. It however appears that homosexuality is a post-dispositional taste which some of my gay friends naively nurture to nature when we allow self, greed, sexual gluttony and careless ease for pleasures to overtake us.”Again there is no biblical evidence to support you here.  I only see your negative feelings on homosexuality shade your interpretation of scripture. The problem I see here is with people who allow

    • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

      The other concern I need to correct is your so-called “attempted rape” of naïve homosexuals of Sodom. Again Gerald, a rapist doesn’t try to rape someone if he or she is not used to the sensual sweetness and boastfulness they derive from the act. Rising scenarios of most rape cases reveal that almost 95% of every rapist has been linked to countless sexual crimes, abuses and “disorientations” faked “orientation”. In order words you’re saying that their attempted rape was an orientation itself…hmm? Made my point. 

  • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

    For God’s sake Gerald, the
    bible does not contradict itself. Homosexuality must not be
    written dot to dot in that passage before we can come to grips with the fact
    that, it’s part of, and completely evidential to be the reason for the
    destruction of Sodom. The account of Lot and that of the men of Sodom is an evidentiary
    value to that fact. The Bible must not split it
    out in one piece for us to come to that understanding. The same way the Bible
    talks about a lot of issues without a clear cut emphasis on what exactly it is
    or what exactly happened. But however that does not mean that the Bible is fallible - NO!  The Bible is the Word
    of Truth that applies to every context. That is even why we are having this
    argument in the first place. That is why a homosexual can stand up and say that
    homosexuality is biblical or rather approved by God in Scripture. A sinner can
    stand up and boldly not resent sin but rather see it as part of the whole
    process towards perfection. Both of us know the sinner is heading nowhere. For
    God’s sake that’s impossible! We can make at lot of plausible conclusions from
    Scripture without having any validatory loop on our stand. Which even when
    applied contextually could be true or false depending on what we define as
    “conventional”. Moreover, His Spirit guides us to discover this Truth
    ourselves. And if you say your finding is at the other end of the road then
    something is wrong. May be i should take your mind back to 2 Samuel 11. The
    shameful act of God’s beloved, David. Many interpretations could be given to
    verse 4 of that chapter. This could even led claims that David never had any
    sex with Bathsheba…this is very possible. But it would
    be disastrous going into such error knowing exactly what the message
    the Bible was trying to convey. If we do such the consequence will be that SIN
    is NATURAL. In other words, David followed his natural instinct and slept with
    another man’s wife. One could even say that the Bible isn’t clear that
    David committed adultery with Bathsheba…all David did was to
    take advantage of the woman. Astonishingly, my NKJV translation says she was
    “cleansed from her impurity” (4b). As you know, this can be
    interpreted in so many different, contradictory ways. One could also argue that
    God did not punish David by allowing him fight wars throughout his time as King
    of Israel and to never had peace all his tenure as King of Israel. This same
    applies to this case brother. You think the rebellion of his
    son Absalom was merely ordinary? Fairly, the answer lies in chapter
    11 of II Samuel which is let for the readers to truly retell what really
    happened that day. I believe you’ve preached on that passage as a pastor: how
    did you eventually interpret the event of that fateful day? 

    • MYK OH

      AMEN BNC!

      • http://www.victorcounted.org/ Victor Counted

        Amen! Truth must be told no matter what!

  • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

    The other concern I need to correct is your so-called “attempted rape” of naïve homosexuals of Sodom. Again Gerald, a rapist doesn’t try to rape someone if he or she is not used to the sensual sweetness and boastfulness they derive from the act. Rising scenarios of most rape cases reveal that almost 95% of every rapist has been linked to countless sexual crimes, abuses and “disorientations” faked “orientation”. In order words you’re saying that their attempted rape was an orientation itself…hmm? Made my point. 

    • http://www.facebook.com/ministergp1 Min Gerald Equality Palmer

      Victor, rape is about power and control.  In the case of the times of Sodom, same sex rape was about embarrassment and so-called taking one’s manhood. It was attempted because it did not happen. Rape has nothing to do with sexual orientation at times.  And here is the key Victor, sexual orientation is the romantic, emotional, and sexual attraction to the same, opposite or both sexes. Again, we condemn the gay community for an attempted rape that may had nothing to do with sexual orientation and yet heterosexual men get a free pass for the actual rape of a woman.  That story is found in Judges.

      • http://twitter.com/lovecounted Victor Counted

        You’re only being overly defensive about the rape issue by applying the judicial language “attempted” to the rape case. So you trying to say they were trying to “intimidate” Lot’s visitors? Well that’s not an issue anyway – whether or not it was “attempted” or “intended”. Let me get back to you with your reply on the other comment. 

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  • http://www.facebook.com/ministergp1 Min Gerald Equality Palmer

    That mindset does not work because there was another story of attempted same sex rape and yet God did not destroy that city.  Judges 21:10-24

    • countedforchrist

      Yes i agree, Gerald. Well let me say (though not called for) that it was not gay-related. Attempted rape incidents are all interspersed all over the OT. 

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